Join us as we address the significant issue of cybersecurity. The crypto-curious can often be hesitant to engage in the crypto ecosystem due to a lack of trust or understanding of the cybersecurity around Web3. In this episode, we are joined by two special guests who are actually both in the technology industry. One is crypto-confident, and the other is crypto-curious but cybersecurity-confident - Andrew Durgee Head of Crypto and Tokenization at Republic; and Tazin Kahn Norelius Founder & CEO of CyberCollective. We talk about the history of email and the adoption phase of crypto, the social impact aspect of these new technologies, and the future of the metaverse.
Show Notes:
Host:
Sheila Lirio Marcelo, Co-Founder & CEO of Proof of Learn and Founder of Care.com
Guests:
Andrew Durgee Head of Crypto and Tokenization at Republic; and Tazin Kahn Norelius Founder & CEO of CyberCollective
This podcast is being provided for informational purposes only and is not intended as investment advice.
Sheila Lirio Marcelo 0:00
Welcome to the W3B'd podcast, the newest source for the crypto curious that unblocks the mystery of blockchain and teaches you the A to Z of NFT's. I'm your host, Sheila Lirio Marcelo, an entrepreneur, educator, founder of Care.com, and CEO of ProofOfLearn. My first venture disrupted Web1 and grew with Web2. Now I'm out with another mission-driven adventure of learning and growing in Web3. Crypto is a big, exciting, and, to many of us, a bewildering world. Let's explore it together. We created this podcast to simplify and celebrate the ins and outs of the new economy, and decentralized web. On each episode of W3B'd, I'll guide a conversation between someone who's been to crypto land and someone interested in going there. You can think of me as your bridge to the metaverse. I know you'll enjoy the ride. And yes, we'll explain what the metaverse is too.
Sheila Lirio Marcelo 1:05
Welcome to this episode of W3B'd where we bring you insights and perspectives of the crypto curious and the crypto confident. I'm your host, Sheila Lirio Marcelo, and I'm delighted to be joined virtually by two special guests who are actually both in the technology industry. One is crypto confident. The other is crypto curious, but cybersecurity confident. We're going to address the very important issue of cybersecurity as the crypto curious can often be hesitant to engage in the crypto ecosystem due to a lack of trust or understanding in depth cybersecurity around Web3. My friend Andrew Durgee is truly an OG within the crypto community, having pioneered early blockchain technology plays, including an industry first multi signature wallet repository in 2010. While 2010 may seem like only yesterday to some in reality, it was over a decade ago and throughout that time, Andrew has built strong tech and crypto companies and networks within this space. And he currently is the managing partner and head of crypto and tokenization at Republic, a private investing platform for investors seeking high growth potential. I'm also happy to have to Tazin Kahn Norelius join us to Tazin is a cybersecurity specialist and the founder of cyber collective, a community centered research organization whose mission is to educate the public by highlighting the voices of the marginalized and under-resourced and positioning them at the center of the data ethics dialogue. Tazin founded cyber collective after ethical privacy concerns at the companies she previously worked for, that had gone unanswered, and she's been educating the public about cybersecurity ever since. Currently, cyber Collective's goal is to help 1 million people become safe, secure and confident in their daily intersections with technology. And today she's joining us as a crypto curious, but security confident guest. I want to start by asking a simple question that I like to discuss with all my guests. Why do you think folks should learn about and invest in crypto? Let's start with Andrew.
Andrew Durgee 3:11
Great questions. Super happy to be here. I think the reality is this question comes up all the time in other different cycles, especially in technology, right? Like I'm sure this question came up as why invest in the printing press? Why invest in television or radio, why invest in television? Why invest in the internet? And I think it just comes down to: this is the next iteration of of human development, both from a technology standpoint and a social standpoint. And there's impacts of that technology that we're already seeing, you know at these kind of early stages, Web3, and is still very, very new. And Web3 itself is really just a rebranding exercise, we want to be super honest with ourselves. We in the industry have gone through a series of rebranding effects going from originally being crypto to then blockchain, then to little stint in something called DLT, which is Distributed Ledger Technology. And then back to crypto. And now we're on Web3. And Web3 seemingly is a lot more digestible for people, although I'll be it a fairly arrogant term if you really think about it, because Web2 itself is large and all encompassing. And to a position that Web3 is the next Web2, I think there's probably some hubris to be there. But anyway, from from a marketing standpoint, I think it's a lot more consumable. The fact of the matter is, the industry as a whole technology is moving in this direction. And because Web3 or crypto or blockchain or DLT, whichever you want to call it, in and of itself is industry agnostic, right? So it can be deployed into a variety of different spaces, whether that's from music, or film, or finance or art. And it's not often that you see a new technology layer that is truly agnostic from that standpoint. So I think what I would tell people, it may be not from the investing side as I am not a financial advisor, nor do I give investment advice, everyone just started out their podcasts with that. But I think what I would say is to take notice, that's probably the most important way. So take notice, learn, educate yourself, ask questions, don't assume what you read is fact. And find resources that you find credible and valuable. And there's more and more of those resources being developed every day.
Sheila Lirio Marcelo 5:30
Thanks, Andrew. You know, to Tazin, I, we're actually recording this podcast while we're on Zoom, so we get to see each other live. I know that you you had a facial reaction, especially that you agreed, and you had a thumbs up when Andrew said, there's an arrogance in how we call Web3. But yet, it's consumable love to just dig a little bit deeper on what you thought about Andrew's answer to the question of why learn and invest in crypto.
Tazin Khan Noreluis 5:58
I couldn't agree more. And I'm also inspired to continue my education. And I think a lot of people make the assumption often that because I'm a security specialist that I'm a crypto specialist. But that is not the case at all, because they're very two different galaxies even in how information can be learned, distributed, etc. But as far as what Andrew said, I was agreeing because I think that there's a lot of dialogue around Web3, and specifically Web3 in conjunction to accessibility. And it's assumed because Web3 is decentralized, that everyone has the opportunity to participate, to understand to get involved to become autonomous with their relationship with the internet and how they use it. And I think while those are all definitely parts of that are completely viable. There are folks that are still, you know, learning about Web2 properly right, like there are are ton of educational gaps, accessibility gaps, and just confident gaps right into how we engage with our relationship with technology and the internet itself. So I really did love the way that Andrew put like, Web3 like all of the rebranding that's happening, right? Because essentially, it's all the same places that we're going, you know, my mom asked me, she was like, 'wait, so like Web3, do I have to go somewhere else? Are there gonna be new devices? Like, where do we find Web3?' And even that as a concept, right? Like the feedback that people are giving is really interesting in that so I really appreciated Andrew's take on that because I don't always hear a lot of crypto confident folks. Explain Things that way. So I'm appreciative.
Sheila Lirio Marcelo 7:52
Love Andrew. He's always straight up super direct. So So Tazin let's dig deeper on this. So what is it about Web3, or crypto or DLT? Or blockchain excite you? Do you invest in the space, I'm so excited to be speaking to you because of this misconception that you started to talk about? And you're so well versed in technology? And you're very knowledgeable around technology and just even distinguishing cyber from crypto. So what is it about this space that excites you or not? Does it apply to you
Tazin Khan Noreluis 8:27
Always excited because one: I'm a nerd. I'm just a a hard nerd. I love sci-fi. I you know just finished reading Ender's Game for the nerds out there in the streets. So I think that the possibility and what crypto does offer to people is gargantuan. It's truly truly just phenomenal. What crypto the access, that it's providing the opportunity that it's providing. Have I personally dug into the crypto world, I can't say that I have because you can only be an expert in so many. And as I have focused my efforts within the tech ethics, security and privacy space, that's been where my head has. I've been heads down there let's say that, but what excites me is you know, as I research how to be secure, right? Within Web3, the metaverse and the crypto space, I'm learning more about it. I do have some small investments here and there. That's something that I don't manage. I have managed on my behalf because outsourcing is so wonderful. And but I was most excited to join this podcast because I have been thinking a lot about investing into crypto. And I want to add that you know, we went from I mean, financial literacy at large for me has been something that culturally, historically, I'm, I'm an immigrant, you know, I'm the daughter of immigrants. My dad's a taxi driver, my mom worked at a Walmart. I've been a provider to my family since I was 14 years old. So for me, financial literacy is a privilege that I am now I have the opportunity to learn more about and then now there's crypto financial literacy. And so I'm just taking things one at a time. You know, because you can't really do it all at once.
Sheila Lirio Marcelo 10:29
No, totally makes sense. Now, as a cybersecurity expert, as you're doing the research, what are the security concerns that come to mind? And when you have an expert like Andrew here, who's also a technologist, you know, what kinds of things as a consumer as a potential investor, where you want to make your own direct investing and not even outsource. And because you're a cyber expert? Like, what gives you pause? And I'd love Andrew, who's crypto confident to then just give some guidance on how you want to think about it because you yourself are an expert.
Tazin Khan Noreluis 11:06
I think the biggest piece is that one investing outside of the actual blockchain method or the crypto that you choose itself. It's the wallets in the places that the technology is actually stored. And that's where I get pause is knowing which crypto wallet to use knowing what mediums are the most secure. And that takes a lot of, I guess, from my end, a lot of research, or at least knowing people within an organization itself to understand: what is your security infrastructure look like? How are you handling different phishing scams? How are you communicating to your consumers that this is you and perhaps this phishing scam is not you? And Andrew mentioned it earlier, right? Like doing your research, making sure you're reading and, getting as many sources as possible, because the internet has, is wonderful. And the beauty of information is great. But then there's also the dark part of it, which a lot of the information can be manipulated. So for me, it's not knowing, you know, do I start with OpenSea? is OpenSea secure? Do I go to, you know, what ledger do I use? And those are the kinds of questions and I'm very much like, I need to know somebody, I'm a know somebody kind of gal. I'm gonna pick up the phone and call someone. So I haven't developed those relationships in the crypto space yet. And that's really what's kind of kept me from diving all the way in and then also time. Yeah.
Sheila Lirio Marcelo 12:41
Thank you for that before Andrew, you answer that question. Just a couple of definitional things. Because this is the W3B'd podcast, OpenSea is a marketplace that you can go visit, to buy non fungible tokens often art and other things, right. And ledger, that Tazin used as a terminology is actually could be a hard wallet, that often is something that has a USB port that you can connect to your computer that you can then pull out and carry around. And that records information, often described as a hard Wallet. So just good for our listeners actually get some of those definitions. But Andrew, turning it over to you, you know, as Tazin, you're hearing Tazin she's a cyber expert. She has concerns around wallet security. Where do you even begin? How do you talk to consumers now that Web3 is more consumer consumable? And you and I have this vision and mission to onboard more people into our industry into Web3, because we're down the rabbit hole and we believe in it. So what what would you advise new consumers as they're going into this? With regards to assessing options and where to begin?
Sheila Lirio Marcelo 12:41
Yeah, no, absolutely. And first off Tazin, you can call me anytime. You can dial me up. You can ask Sheila. I'm available all hours.
Tazin Khan Noreluis 13:59
Be careful what you say. I'll tell you that.
Sheila Lirio Marcelo 14:03
We do text from all over the world. I always say where is Andrew today?
Andrew Durgee 14:10
In just Republic in general. Education is a big part of what we do. You know it's part of our mandate is we'll always stop to answer questions like that's everyone in the Republic crypto team knows that that's the mandate and it's part of our mission. I think, let's kind of eat this elephant one bite at a time because there's a couple items here. First is I think it's important identify where we sit in the cycle of technology deployment architecture. We have just recently started to move outside of the innovation layer and into the adoption layer. Okay. And it's really important to identify that because we're really just scraping the surface of that and the project that Sheila's working on is amazing because it explicitly attacks that aspect. Timing is actually very good. So the ability to to move move towards the adoption. So it comes with a couple of pieces: one is being able to abscond the blockchain layer or the or the, the technical layer away from the retail user. Retail users, when they go on to Salesforce, they don't know that Salesforce sits on a really ugly layer of Apache. And when they go into Windows, you know, they don't, may not remember having to go into MS DOS and command line script to use it, right. So these are, these are the evolutions that create an adoption layer to bring on everyday regular people, these retail people. So we're just now starting to cross into that. And with that comes a lot of responsibility, especially around security. And the big difference between those technologies moving into adoption, and this is there's actually real consequences, financial consequences with that, within this particular stack. Previously, you would lose maybe your information, you'd either be hacked, and people get access to your email, or whatever it is. There's financial implications now for that security layer. And it's the responsibility industry to make sure that we're attacking that pragmatically and effectively. So as we start to move from this adoption layer, where we're bringing on these people, we need to make make sure that we're adding that layer of security and protection and or, in order for them to be comfortable moving financial assets through this vehicle. And maybe it's not even just financial assets, maybe it's art, you know, maybe it's things they personally find valuable. You know, a lot of times everyone associates crypto with money, it's like a very common thing. And the fact of the matter is Satoshi's white paper, and just quick history lesson. There's an anonymous programmer that created blockchain technology, he wrote a paper, Satoshi white paper, everyone should read it, it's only a couple pages. It's super consumable. It's not extremely technical. But this entire conversation that we're having, in the previous 13 years of technology development is all based on this one document, right. So it's a great place to start. In fact, I always encourage people to start there. But the money aspect of blockchain is the proof of concept. Bitcoin, which is the first proof of concept associated with Blockchain was the easiest to understand, because it was a money, associated money, creating money, creating wealth. But the reality is, again, back to kind of this agnostic industry perspective is, there's other things that are valuable, that aren't money, right. And we're seeing that now, we saw this huge run in the NFT space, in the last 12 months, and there's going to be more around music and film. So it's really more so about the ability to transfer a digital asset from one storage to another, that's the blockchain is the simplest, simplest form, if you want to look at it, it's the first scenario where you can digitally transfer an asset or transfer a digital asset from one place to another without creating a copy. Now, money is a good brief case for that, right? Because I have Bitcoin, and I send it, you know, split it in half and send it equally to my partners here on this call. And I no longer have it. Now they have. And that is a really, really important designation, because that's it's from there that we find ourselves moving into this, basically, new technology space. And it all comes back down to that original concept. Now, there's all types of things now that are built on top, right, there's all other different things from super technical zero knowledge proof, solutions to funny NFT cats, and all these other pieces. But at the end of the day, it comes back to the ability for someone to be able to physically hold and own a digital asset. And if they so choose, transfer that digital asset to somebody else. Now, we come back to the adoption side of things. Now that we're in a position where that that is now proven technology, we know that that works. And we know that it works at scale in a lot in a lot of places, maybe not at a global scale, but is working at scale, it comes back to where we start to onboard everyday users into that, into this new environment. And it is comes at an extreme amount of responsibility for us to do that in a way that they feel secure and confident. And there's technologies that have done this, well. Coinbase has done a good job of it, the exchanges, honestly are generally the best at it. First and foremost, because I think they have a high choice profile. And and that's 100% strictly financial assets, it's nothing else. And so they kind of cut their way through first. And I think Coinbase and FTX, and finance will be they've really done a good job at that. And I think you're gonna start to see them do more of the innovation there. They also have nearly unlimited money so they can really, really, really open up the pocketbook or the wallet, so to speak, and spend money deploying on it, and it's important to them, right? Because there's only two places that those exchanges can grow their volume, and it's either on the institutional side or the retail side and they have extreme focuses on both. So I think you'll see a lot of the innovation come out of there. The other area that you're gonna see a lot on the adoption side also is just from regular everyday people. Beautiful thing about blockchain generally is it's open source, the reason the industry moves so fast. And the reason it's really hard to stay up on it, even myself, who I live and breathe and eat it. My favorite part about the industry is it's forever education, you are always a student, every day, there's something new coming out. And it's because of this open source mentality. And its community mentality, everyone can build on it, right? Anyone can go build a product on a theory or on Polygon, or Avalanche, right? Everyone has the ability to do that, because it's open source, and it's readily available to them. And you'll move. it's important to note, we are at a period of time now, where 13 year olds, 14 year olds have only existed in a world where digital assets were Bitcoin existence, right?
Andrew Durgee 21:02
In two more years, 16 year olds right, will have only existed in or three more years, 16 year olds will only exist in a world where Bitcoin and digital assets existed. Those are the people that are going to be creating the new wave of innovation and adoption, because they are truly native to the space, they have only existed in a world where that has existed. And those are the ones that are going to push the adoption layer harder than anybody else.
Sheila Lirio Marcelo 21:28
I love that you're such an advocate for the space. But obviously, I'm way down the rabbit hole with you on this. Tazin what do you think of that? What did you just hear about? Just because you touched on accessibility. You were you will also touch on the fact that in Web3, again, in that sort of arrogant consumable branding of Web3, you had touched on, is it really accessible for all? Or is that a really a branding thing. And yet, Andrew is highlighting here that one of the things that he's passionate about, and I'm certainly passionate about is the accessibility for all to access the technology and to build on it given the power of open source.
Tazin Khan Noreluis 22:10
I love the way you broke everything down, Andrew, for me, these kinds of conversations, that was one of the main reasons why I was open to joining this podcast is because I was so excited to learn, because I like I said, I truly learn through conversation. And I think that, you know, especially as you talk about the innovation layer, as opposed to the adoption layer, and breaking apart the fact that like, you know, there are places where there's 100% financial assets or not, I think that dichotomizing the, the entire scope of what crypto is itself is really helpful. For one, two, I couldn't agree more with the fact that it is open source, and it allows everything to move quickly. There is forever education, anyone can indeed build products. And this upcoming generation is already doing so much within the technology space and will continue to and this is the life that they know, I also, I also believe that you know, there are a ton of people that perhaps or myself, like it's overwhelming with how quickly things are moving and how much you can do. Because one day I learn about this, and then the next day, it's like, 'oh, snap, all of that may be a little different, or there's more to expand and adopt.' So I think that at least personally, and I can't speak for everyone that that's a little intimidating and also exciting at the same time. So that's a piece of it. And then the accessibility piece. And this is where we kind of dial into the more the ethics of things, and where a lot of the folks that I admire, like the Dr. Sofia Knobles of the world through Ruja Benjamin, who else Kathy O'Neill, all of these incredible people that have been talking about technology ethics, and then specifically around social justice. You know, I think there's an element of we're still patching and putting band aids on some of the systems that were created related to Web1 and 2, and how what the downstream effects and potential harms of that technology have been on society. And I think that Web3 has an impeccable opportunity and has already freed us of so many of those potential ethical, what's the word I'm looking for, I guess, some of the things that I guess hold us back, especially as we consider the infrastructure just at large in that cannot keep up with what Web3 is doing right now. Right, like our government infrastructure or a lot of the policies and compliance that are in place. And I I believe in slowing down. So I think what I take away from this is as we move very quickly, and adopting new products and technologies and learn more about Web3, I'm excited to be a critical thinker in this process and continue to learn from familiar people, and perhaps take the time to ask the questions that are more related to potential ethical pitfalls, and not to be a 'Debbie Downer' or anything, but it's just these things need to be considered. And because they weren't considered in the past, we're dealing with the consequences of those things. And I find it my duty to ask those questions. And that's where I'm at, but I'm excited. Regardless.
Andrew Durgee 25:46
Can I ask a question.
Tazin Khan Noreluis 25:47
Yeah!
Sheila Lirio Marcelo 25:47
Yeah, please go ahead.
Andrew Durgee 25:50
When did each of you get your first email address? You remember?
Sheila Lirio Marcelo 25:54
Damn, it must have been in college. Probably my sophomore year. In college, that would be...
Andrew Durgee 26:03
So that's what 2001?
Sheila Lirio Marcelo 26:05
Oh, gosh, yeah, you're saying I'm a lot younger than that. Is the I think it was like 1990, 1991. Yeah, yeah. It was very early. It was one of the earliest.
Andrew Durgee 26:20
One of the earliest.
Tazin Khan Noreluis 26:23
That's super early. I we didn't get a computer in our house until probably like, I don't know, like 2000-2001. So yeah, my my. I think my username was like Mommy got vocals was my username?
Andrew Durgee 26:43
That's awesome. Oh, my gosh.
Tazin Khan Noreluis 26:45
Yeah!
Andrew Durgee 26:46
I'm gonna email mommyvocals@aol.com.
Tazin Khan Noreluis 26:47
It is definetley an 'aol.com.' Yeah, we were using we were using net zero at the time for our dial up.
Sheila Lirio Marcelo 26:56
Yeah, it was college, college was really a computer class. And they were showing it to us and encouraged everyone to get an email. We were like, What is this?
Andrew Durgee 27:03
So we're not that's 1991. And everyone here would probably say that's pretty early, right? But do you know when email was actually invented? What would be your guesses?
Sheila Lirio Marcelo 27:17
70s
Andrew Durgee 27:17
70s, 80s, 70s, 80s? Yeah,
Sheila Lirio Marcelo 27:20
My guess.
Andrew Durgee 27:20
What's your guess?
Tazin Khan Noreluis 27:23
I was just reading something that told me a few months ago, I think like late 70s, early 80s.
Andrew Durgee 27:33
Yeah. So email was invented on October 29th, 1969. On the original ARPANET, okay, and then really came more so like a prominent, like prop, like, technically used, in 1971. There's guy named Ray Thompson. And he invented what's technically known as electronic mail. He was the first one. And then they started really using it pretty heavily in in IBM Systems and stuff from the 70s. And then in the 80s it was actually, it was much larger than people realize, actually in the 80s. Reason I'm bringing that up is we're understanding innovation versus adoption is really important, because you were talking about an innovation that took place 30 years, right? Before you touched it 20 years before Sheila touched it, right? And so we have a long way to go. And what's really interesting about adoption is adoption actually doesn't speed up as much like technology doesn't really speed up adoption that much more, because human beings still have to learn it, understand it, digest it. Most importantly, a new generation has to come in, that's innately involved in that technology in order to really push it forward. So you can only accelerate that model so much. So we're still incredibly early in the cycle. And, you know, we're in the 1979 or 1980 version of email from when it was originally created. And I think it's important to be able to understand that perspective.
Sheila Lirio Marcelo 29:00
That's a really good perspective. I mean, one of the things Tazin was touching on was I think you were looking for a phrase like unintended consequences when technology speeds up. And her advocacy is, 'hey, at times, it's important to slow down, be a critical thinker. Ask the right questions. Are we headed in the right direction before unintended unintended consequences happen that have an impact on society that we didn't, we didn't want?' We didn't want that outcome. And so Andrew, as we think about one of the things I'm observing in the Web3 space, is that when bad things happen, seems to me that the community comes together, there is a sense of transparency, of figuring out where the bad actors are. What happened to that there is a natural policing in the space and there's also a natural solutions oriented approach in the space. Could you just touch on that because you are such an OG in this space and you've seen a lot of ups and downs on what's the culture like, on the kinds of things to Tazin raised of these unintended consequences, that is different in Web3 from Web2.
Andrew Durgee 30:08
Yeah, I mean, community is, is the crux of it. And it's through distributed systems and engagement mechanisms and connectivity where people feel part of these communities, right? I think, man, if you really want to dive into it, it's kind of a little bit of a securities conversation on how far you want to go down this rabbit hole, but I'll open the box and dive right into it. You know, especially from like an immigrant family perspective, there's a lot of exclusion in financial systems, like substantially, right. And, you know, I have a fundamental problem with the US accreditation system. And I'm unapologeticakly honest about it. There's this huge financial gating mechanism that requires people in the United States to have at least $200,000 in earnings a year, 350,000 thousand per household, a million dollars of like liquid assets, not including your home, I mean, just nuts in order to be able to participate in early stage investments. So if you want to, if you were a mother of three, single mom, mother of three, making like 120 grand a year in Iowa, which is actually pretty good, right? I mean, that's a really good spot to be, you still can't participate in, you know, pre SpaceX IPOs, because you're not an accredited investor, you can go to Vegas, you can morgage your house, but it all in black, no one seems to care. But if you want to be able to make like sound financial decisions and make some financial bets and things you don't have, legally not be able to do it. And in blockchain, we find ourself in the first scenario where you can participate in early stage items, at least for now. And I don't know how long that will stay that way. And regulatory regulators are definetly looking at the space. But you have the ability to participate in early stage companies, right. And you have the ability to attach yourself to the upside of these businesses, which creates retail community, because you're in there from the beginning. And you're supporting it, and you're an advocate for it, and you're a zealot for it. And Sheila the stuff that you're working on, I mean, it's almost agnostic to that you've become an advocate for all these different environments, right, you're an onboarding all these people into these different environments. And it's the first time in a long time where people have had an option to do that. And, and they want that option, and they should have that option. So I think you have one side of it that comes from that piece. And that's that part of the community. The other part of the community is the people that are building in developing in these environments and making legitimate impacts. Right? Again, this open source idea everyone can build on. The reason industry moves so fast, because it's open source, people can build on top of this on top of that, and because all these people are coming together, it accelerates the industry a lot faster. And I'll give you a really good example. I won't go through the history lessons, I could just do an email. But virtual reality and augmented reality have been around a long time, since the 50s. Like, if you look at the first VR device, it looks like a torture, like some type of like interrogation torture mechanism. But it's been around a long time. And it's one of the most walled garden, secure IP environments, like you can possibly imagine. And it's been a very slow slog through its developmental cycle, yet, in the last 18 months, it's moved faster than it's ever moved, it's moved more than last 18 months than it has in the last 18 years. And that was because the Web3 community and the NF community NFT community, that digital asset community recognizes that AR and VR, work really well with that type of toolkit, but that toolkit's open source. So you have to be able to allow open source technologies to come in and out of these walled garden environments. And so what's happened is Web3 has literally grabbed that industry, like by its head and pulled it forward into this environment and move to forward more in 18 months and as an 18 years, because of this open source mentality because of this community based environment. Because people now want to be able to build product in these environments that other people can use. It's not just owned by the one entity, that is the one that initiated that tech. So that's just VR. It's happening with everything, right, any of these walled garden spaces. So I think the power of community the power of retail, is growing and move. Let's give us one more quick example if everyone knows what happened with like, GameStop last year, like right, the retail market literally took hold of a stock in the bankrupted some of the largest financial institutions, because of their willingness and desire to drive this thing forward. Right. That was a true shock to the financial world. And to us incredibly exciting. Republics are extremely retail oriented, we have retail platform, we sell retail investors, we want to give people retail access to these things. We always love the example of like, what if Uber was able to give shares to their first Uber drivers like what would that have looked like? Like, would you have ever driven for Lyft? Or any of the others? Right? Would you have been an Uber advocate for life because of it, we are firmly of the opinion that you would have been. And that's about building community and attaching longtail financial upside to individuals who want to support a product, or business or an idea at an early stage.
Sheila Lirio Marcelo 35:26
That was been always been my dream, Andrew, and that's when you and I bonded when we first met, is I always thought how could caregivers at care.com own a majority of the company given that, you know, they support the economy. They make all work possible, the care that they provide families, but yet they are paid under minimum wage. It's this accessibility that I think the power of the technology can provide to the gig economy to the retail, you know, technologist who wants to build on open source. So it's all just all pretty exciting stuff. So Tazin, as you're hearing sort of we went through sort of a history lesson, which was amazing, Andrew, I mean, it's just enlightening. And it makes it so much more consumable, because I think everyone knows, you know that most people have email, and they have access to that. So if I turn over to to Tazin, and you're hearing sort of this, where do you want to see the future of Web3? And the metaverse as I wrap this up? And of course, I'm gonna, I'm gonna turn to Andrew next on answering that question. We kind of went through a little bit of a history lesson, what's happening in the immediacy now, as we're seeing the impact of Web3, even on technology, accessibility, and community, where do you want to see the future? Given your expertise in cybersecurity and your work at cyber collective?
Tazin Khan Noreluis 36:46
That's a great question. And I really am appreciative of the way that you describe things, Andrew just, I'm a wholehearted believer of storytelling, and you really do share it, like a story. And it's so much more digestible. And as far as your question, Sheila, what do I want to see? I want to see all of the things that all of the crypto nerds, right, say that there's possibility for, I really do want to see a world where everyone is not only knowledgeable of this space, but they can adopt the use of the technologies itself. And then also potentially, in the future innovate, right, and I speak on behalf of, you know, the kids that are focused on translating governmental documents for their parents, right, when they're young, and in the West for the first time, or the kids that started working at 14 years old and don't have the luxury the time to research outside of sort of being in survival mode. And so I would love to see a future where Web3 and the crypto space helps alleviate the survival mode that a lot of the people that I represent are in, and they can find information that is told like a story that is accessible. And that is providing all of the safety measures necessary too, through their adoption cycle. And I also would love to see a future where people are while we move quickly, while we are exploring and innovating, that we're always considering the downstream consequences of what we're building and how it affects the global majority, and how it impacts the systems that are kind of in place today. Right, I think a lot of emphasis or are working on patching up some of the consequences of technologies that were built through Web1, Web2, right. And so as we consider that, let's implement those lessons into what we're doing within Web3. And so that's the future that I want to see. And I will tell you that I'm going to do research and my goal by the end of this week, is to finish reading the article that you mentioned, Andrew, the white papers was that...
Sheila Lirio Marcelo 39:09
Associate coin white paper, yes.
Tazin Khan Noreluis 39:12
So is she right yeah? I'm going to read that. I'm gonna get in a text message thread with the both of you. And, um, yeah, I'm just I'm super excited.
Sheila Lirio Marcelo 39:24
And the follow up white paper is a theorium one, it actually critiques and also discusses the Bitcoin one at a deeper way. So that's definitely worth reading after it's more technical. It goes deeper, but definitely worthy. So Andrew, where do you want to see the future of the Metaverse?
Andrew Durgee 39:40
Oh, man. You know, I think it's tough like Metaverse is a term that's thrown around a lot.
Sheila Lirio Marcelo 39:45
Yeah.
Andrew Durgee 39:46
But no one really knows what it means. There's no one Metaverse, right? These are all these little small, like visual digital ecosystems that people are dipping their toes into. So our Metaverse I think is broadly used incorrectly. It's this like this overarching, sweeping term? I think Metaverse is very early. I think most of the metaverse technology that we see is still very early. I think that the next iteration of it, I think the current Metaverses that exists now, again, are the proof of concept versions. And what we're seeing in the next iteration, or maybe even iteration after that are going to be the ones that have a lot more staying power. But that doesn't mean what we see now is not good. I mean, it's, we have to start somewhere, right? Someone had to send the first email in 1969, someone has to start the first Metaverse in 2000, or 2022. So I mean, I'm just overwhelmed with excitement. And I think hope is a big part, like hope is like a fundamental component of the industry. And the ability that individuals can have an impact on something much greater than themselves and be part of communities that have these impacts, that can be super fascinating. I think a lot of people ignore the social impacts of the industry, and everyone is so financially driven by it. But the social impacts I think, are going to be much, much, much larger. And as you see larger partners come in and focus on adoption. That's going to shift that narrative quite a bit. I'll give you an example. I was meeting with Fox the other day. And they attribute and I first I did not necessarily agree with this. But now that I've spent time digesting this concept I like think on is true. They attribute the ability for most of America to text. Do believe Fox believes that they're responsible for that. And it's because they had I think Ryan Seacrest on television every week showing people how to text to vote on America's Got Talent. Yeah. And if you start to
Sheila Lirio Marcelo 41:49
American Idol, American Idol.
Andrew Durgee 41:51
American Idol, sorry, sorry, American Idol. Yeah. Thank you, thank you for the correction. On American Idol. Yeah. And and every week, they would get on and say, text to this, and this is how you do it. And they'll hold up, you know, some phone. And, you know, what is the social impact of that program? It's huge. And a note, did they interpret it was going to be like that at a time? No, I'm not sure. But the social impacts of this is going to be far more interesting, I think, than the financial impacts. And so I think that's right now, where I look at finding myself most excited, is related mostly to that.
Sheila Lirio Marcelo 42:33
I love that note that you both ended on this has been so great. I mean, the journey that we just went on was the history of email, the innovation by Satoshi that Tazin is now going to go off and read, the adoption phase that we are now in in Web3. And it's still early. And even in its infancy. It's so influential that it's bringing in other technologies like VR and moving them faster that Andrew touched on. And I love that we went on a journey of at the core of it to crypto in its definition isn't just about financial gain, and the concerns that people have around fraud or criminal intent, in using the technology that you both believe in the word of hope. And I love what Tazin said, 'alleviating survival mode,' at the end of it that you both ended on the note of social impact. You're my kindred souls. Thank you both very much for being on this podcast on W3B'd. And we are excited to continue to have conversations like this that are meaningful. It's incredible what we can learn from one another. I can't wait for all of us to tap into the world of crypto and the metaverse though it's a broad term as Andrew said while staying safe. Thank you both. Thank you for tuning in to this episode of W3b's. If you've enjoyed today's discussion, please continue to check us out on all of your favorite streaming platforms.
This podcast is being provided for informational purposes only and is not intended as investment advice.